Episode 05 - Courts & Community: Chief District Judge James McCabria

Sheriff Jay Armbrister hosts a discussion featuring Judge James McCabria, chief district court judge of the Seventh Judicial District of Kansas, which is Douglas County. 

Judge McCabria discusses his role, including caseload distribution and administrative functions, and explains other aspects of the courts in Kansas. Judge McCabria shares his background, including his education at Ohio State University and Tulsa University, and his career path from defense attorney to prosecutor and judge. He explains the selection process for district court judges and the importance of public respect for the judiciary. The conversation also touches on the challenges of the justice system, including workload management and the impact of failures to appear in court.

Transcript

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Jay Armbrister: 0:00

I like The Mary Tyler Moore Show. It makes me giggle every time we learned what that's for. I learned after watching your project exactly, it's like, holy cow. All those years I thought it was just a Hollywood thing. So okay, if you're ready, man, okay. Okay. Welcome everybody. We're back with the newest edition of the view from 100 I believe, is what we're calling it podcast. We're very fortunate today to have a very special guest, a member of the judicial branch of the government, whereas I reside deeply within the executive branch. But Judge McCabria has agreed to come on and speak with us, and we're going to just talk a little bit about the justice system, the criminal justice system, specifically at both a high level and maybe a little bit as a local level, but, but really, I think there's just so many nuances and kind of hidden corners within the system that I know I didn't understand, and I'm sure a lot of people Don't understand just, you know, a lot of the wording, you know, there's a lot of Latin, you know, involved in this job, apparently. And so I just wanted to, I wanted to bring you in. I want you to tell us who you are, because I just don't think enough people know who their judges are, but also where you come from and where you see us headed. So, so we'll just, I'll just leave it to you to tell us more about yourself, but thanks for coming, and who are you and why are you here? Well, thanks

Judge James McCabria: 1:24

for inviting. And why I'm here is because I feel like part of the job of a district court judge is to be an ambassador for the courts people. One of the most common questions I get, especially around when retention elections roll around, is, how do I know who to vote for? Should I vote this way or that way? And I know it's a tough thing to do, because we're not out in the public like normal elected officials would be, or the only time we're in the news is when the news considers it worth covering, and 95% of what happens up there isn't covered. So you know, part of the judicial cannons encourages part of the role of the Chief Judge under the Supreme Court rules is to act in a way that promotes understanding of the judiciary. So when I got your email, I decided it wasn't the worst decision I could make. Sure to talk with you, and I appreciate it. So I am the chief judge of this Judicial District, seventh Judicial District. I took the bench here in 2014 VERY END OF 2014 and then I've been the chief judge. It's a two year term. This is my third two year term. And one thing to clear up right away is, chief judge does not mean I'm the boss of any of the other judges. I was gonna ask you, what does that mean? It used to be called the administrative judge position. There's also another administrative judge position in the law. So they, I think they fancied the title up to make you feel better about being chief judge. The pay differential between district court and Chief Judge, it's a constant source of attempts at comedy at the judicial conferences. It's not much. The position has grown over time. It's an administrative position. So my chief responsibility is to make sure that the caseload distribution among the district court judges is fair and reasonable and equitable, and then I handle any sort of the administrative functions that come up with the court in terms of personnel issues or, you know, budget issues and those sorts of Sure. So that's really all. The Chief Judge position is each judge who has a division assignment. They're the judge over their cases. Nobody has to answer to me for those decisions. There's a limited role where the chief judge, if somebody requests the judge be removed, the chief judge in that district will do a review of the request. If that judge says, No, I think I can serve then, you know, it's always good to have another sure judge make that

Jay Armbrister: 3:50

now, when you say removed, you mean like, from a specific case or from the bench,

Judge James McCabria: 3:54

yeah. So you walk in the courtroom and you remember that judge, mccabrey, is somebody that you know you got in a for whatever the reason? Yeah, sure. Sure. You're some personal me, or, you know, my aunt, or you know something about me that you think means I can't be fair and impartial in that case. And a lot of times, the requests that people get are after the judge has ruled something that's not, that's not usually going to get you there. It's a matter of it's not the substance of the rulings. It's not for me to review whether they followed the law. That's what our appellate courts are for. It's Is there a basis upon which a reasonable person could look at that relationship and think that judge in this circumstance cannot be fair and impartial, and that's a tough standard, because judges have an obligation to be fair and impartial, even in the face of criticism and people who don't like them, people who think that they shouldn't be a judge. Sure you know when people have the freedom to say those things, judges have an obligation to overlook them, and if a particular judge thinks that they can't, I'm confident any of our judges, i. You know, would step down when they think that there's the appearance of improvise, sure, but, you know, I'm there to review that decision. Yeah, somebody check

Jay Armbrister: 5:09

and balance. Yeah, really. So well, I have 1000 questions about about the the work you do and the the court system in general, but more about where you come from. Like, I know a bit of your history, but I know that you have deep ties to this. I mean, generational ties to this community and in Douglas County. But where did you go to school? How'd you How did you get to be I mean, I remember you as a defense attorney, you know, and then also as a prosecutor, so, I mean, kind of, where'd you come from? So the

Judge James McCabria: 5:38

medium version of that is on my dad's side of the family. Came here immediately after the Civil War started farming on mom's side of the family. A little bit later, the place where I'm living, the house that's on the property. The older house is the house that my great granddad built in Eudora, Kansas. Yeah, my granddad was born in it. My mom grew up in it. I'm living in the house next door to it nowadays, you know, and for the most part, both sides of the family were farm people. There were some folks who did some other things as well, but so until my mom and dad were the first in their family to go to KU to college, and then dad had a job with Westinghouse when they had a plant in Kansas City. That plant got closed. He moved to Ohio. That's where I came into the picture. But, but one of the great things growing up was every summer, our family vacations would see door Kansas. I remember Douglas County when Iowa was the far west side. And, you know, I came back one summer and we were going to take a drive way out to see the new Clinton Lake way out in the country. And now, you know, the first house I bought, I could see Clinton lake from my back porch. Yeah, so there is that connection. And one of the neat things when my dad retired and moved back here, go down to the coffee shop in your door every morning, and the guys that he grew up with, it's like he never left, you know? And I got to see my dad in a whole new light in the community. So that's the that's the family history. Sure, my history is I graduated Ohio State University, applied to different law schools. I didn't

Jay Armbrister: 7:20

know that. You're a buckeye.

Judge James McCabria: 7:22

I'm a Bucha. Holy cow,

Jay Armbrister: 7:25

Isn't it supposed to be the Ohio State

Judge James McCabria: 7:27

University. You know, I didn't say it was a good

Jay Armbrister: 7:29

Bucha, the emphasis on the first syllable. So

Judge James McCabria: 7:34

ended up going to law school in Oklahoma at Tulsa University. Okay, golden hurricane. Really just made that decision because I knew some people down there, and I'd been at Ohio State, which is one of the largest, if not the largest, at the time, universities, and I wanted the smaller setting. But as I got near to graduation, I knew I wanted to come back, and mom and dad had retired and moved back to the family farm, so started looking for jobs in Kansas. As I was graduating, ended up in Coffeyville, Kansas, at what I consider to be one of the best places I could have started. It was a group of attorneys. You had some guys that were, you know, silver hairs, and some younger guys, they did a little bit of everything. I started out as a defense attorney there, and as mom and dad were getting older and more settled back in Douglas County, I started thinking about maybe I should move up here. I did that. I opened my own office in Eudora. Had that for about a year and a half, between my dog dying and 911 happening, I decided I wanted to switch positions. I went to the Attorney General's office in Topeka. Worked there for, gosh, I gotta stop. And thinks just under six years. Oh, my who was the Ag at that time? Carlos Stovall, okay, yeah. And then there was that contentious race that happened, Phil Klein got elected. I debated about what to do there. Decided to stay, and I had been so when I had my office here, I had been a defense attorney. I'd done defense work primarily when I was in Coffeyville. Charles Branson was a defense attorney at the time. Sure, while I was in Topeka, Charles got elected district attorney. I was having coffee one day with somebody who said, you know, Charles is going to be looking to hire somebody new and in his office, and that was right after the Phil Klein transition. And I thought, I'm just going to go see Charles and see what's up. I hadn't done defense work in five years, and we had a conversation. And next thing I know, I'm a prosecutor. Oh, man, which always sort of amused me in a certain light, because as a defense attorney, I had a fairly preconceived notion of of prosecution, yeah, but I took it thinking, you know, there's a right way and a wrong way to do it, and I think I can do it the right way. Charles gave me the chance to do that. I was a Assistant District Attorney for from 2006 until I took the bench in 2014 enjoyed it completely. Learned a lot from the other prosecutors in the office, and when the opportunity came up to be a district court judge, quite frankly, it was one of our sitting judges at the time, encouraged me to put in. I hadn't really seen myself in that light. I did so we can talk more about how the selection process works, but I made it onto the slate that goes up to the governor on that first run through, to my surprise, did not get selected at that turn, put in at the next opening went up. Governor selected me. And for those that don't know, in Douglas County, district court judges are appointed by the governor, and the process is this, there is a local selection committee comprised of three citizens, non lawyers, appointed by county commissioners, select somebody. There's three attorneys who are voted on by the local bar who they want to sit on the panel, and then that group is chaired by a non voting justice from the Supreme Court. Anybody can put in they interview with the selection committee. The committee will make a recommendation, usually, in a district of our size of three names to send up to the governor. You go through a governor interview process. He selects. Once you're selected, you'll stand for what's called a retention election. You'll stand the next election cycle after your appointment, thereafter, every four years. And basically, if you've been in the ballot box. You see the question, should James R McCabria mccabrey be retained for the next four year term? Yes or no? And if 50% of the population says no, the selection committee will be picking a new judge when I finish out my term, and if less than 50% says that, then retained? Okay,

Jay Armbrister: 12:02

so what Governor selected you? I was Brownback. Brownback. Okay, that's what I'm trying to think of all the governors about that time. So okay, and so the the seventh the so there's the three citizens, there's three attorneys, and then there's the sitting justice. You said non voting, but does that? Does he break a tie? He or she break a tie? Has to be a majority of the Okay, so committee of six people, they're kind of setting him up for failure.

Judge James McCabria: 12:29

You know, I think it's, it's a really, a very thorough process. I'm sure it's a topic of debate right now. In fact, there's going to be a vote, I guess, in August of 26 on a constitutional amendment. That's the same, essentially the same process for selecting our Supreme Court justices, longer term, six year terms, rather than four. Sure. But you know, the question is, you can have a direct election and then, and then about half the Kansas districts, which I've never fully understood the history of this, yeah, there is direct election of judges. Why not? County is our closest county that runs that way. Or you can have, you know, this process. And when I was in montgomery county, that was an elected process between the two. You know, everybody's entitled to their opinion, yeah, but there's gonna be politics in it, no matter what percent of time, yeah, it's a question of accountability, I suppose. And who you want people to be accountable to? I would say accountable more to the law versus the pressures of voting. But right? You know, that's not to say that elected judges aren't doing their job. It's just right, part of the discussion, part of the debate,

Jay Armbrister: 13:38

sure, sure, yeah. Well, in montgomery county, that's a unique little ecosystem. Anyways, having the community college, as I was growing up, it was always kind of, I want to say it a tough town, but, you know, it was. It was a very diverse town of working class town, but that it was also had it brought in a lot of students from out of state to play football. I mean, the the the demons, or whatever, the ravens, whatever they were. They they had quite a football program, and they brought a lot of kids in. So I remember, as I was coming up, I had a friend that lived down there, and he's like, man, yeah, it's just a, it's a unique little place to live right there on the border of Oklahoma. So is

Judge James McCabria: 14:12

that your knowledge base? Is your friend? Or did you have some other connection?

Jay Armbrister: 14:15

No, that was just, just my friend, and just traveling through there. My brother went to independence and played and played football there. So we kind of knew the, you know, that that was kind of a rivalry between those two bunch of kids that just really didn't care. But it was. But southeast Kansas is just a whole other, a whole other place, different culture. It really is. And I mean,

Judge James McCabria: 14:33

of course, you can say Lawrence is unique in Kansas

Jay Armbrister: 14:38

there. I don't, I don't think there's any person inside or outside of Lawrence that wouldn't agree that we are absolutely unique. And I always like to kind of say is Lawrence is very spirited, which is the term you use for another person's kid that doesn't know how to behave, but you don't want to say they're bad. You got a really spirited kid there. Lawrence can be very spirited. It at time, but, but again, I was born and raised here, and I love it. So what? And I guess this question is more philosophical in nature, not necessarily locally, but what do you see as kind of the biggest and I use the term threat, not in a in an aggressive, violent manner, but like, what do you see as the biggest issue or threat to to the justice system as a whole? Like, do you see? You know what? I guess it's just that's the question. What do you what do you see? Yeah,

Judge James McCabria: 15:33

well, I'll premise whatever I'm going to say with the admonition I was given early on when I took the bench was, you know, all your jokes are gonna be funnier now that you're wearing the robe. Sure, I'm not any funnier. I don't know it wasn't funnier before I took the bench, right, right? I took the bench, or vice versa, I guess is the way to say that. And I don't know that I have any particular insight. I think anybody who watches our culture, watches what's going on, has their opinions about those things. Yeah, the single biggest threat is the fact that over time, when you look at surveys of public respect for the judiciary, sure, and really, for most every elected position, for every government position, it's gone down. So I think in some ways the argument is the biggest threat to the judiciary is the judiciary. We don't conduct ourselves in a way that people can respect, people can trust what we're doing, yeah, feel like we care about what we're doing, then what we do won't have the respect authority you could.

Jay Armbrister: 16:39

You could take the judiciary, judiciary out of that and add law enforcement into its exact same thing. I think that we are our own worst enemy. We've made mistakes, and at times, we haven't owned them or learned from them. And if that's, if that's who you want to be, then that's who you're going to be, you know. And I think, I think the judiciary has been a little different, the fact that they do operate in a bit of a darker you know, you know, not as much in the forefront of the public eye, and especially when it comes to the you know, rulings and judges that judges make. A judge may make 1000 rulings in a year, but only two of them are going to hit the newspaper, and it's going to be, as you said, whatever the media decides is worthy of of their time and attention. Yeah,

Judge James McCabria: 17:23

and certainly, the biggest part of our caseload that comes through the courtroom is criminal, sure, but you know, and we're here to talk about that aspect of things, I'm glad to do that. But as a judge, you know, we hear everything from small claims to medical malpractice, everything from contract disputes between employers and their employees and landlords and tenants. And you know, there's a there's so many things beyond what gets reported in the paper that judges are asked to do, and those are the opportunities where we have to really connect with the people who walk through the courthouse. Yeah. And, you know, every day is an opportunity to either promote the judiciary or detract from it. And you know, on any given day, I can do a good job of that, or I can, you know, yeah, I've got up on the wrong side of the bed and right not afraid to say there's days when I I don't like the job I did, sure, judging. But the other piece of advice was, any judge who likes every decision that they make probably isn't a good judge. Nope. Don't need that person. Sometimes it's tough. Sometimes you're just doing the best you can, and you'd rather we're different, but this is what you feel like the law tells you you have to do. And Right,

Jay Armbrister: 18:39

right, you know, and everybody, I mean, rightfully so, people feel victimized by the justice system, or that it's broken or it's slow, but, but what I like to tell people is that while it those may be true, it is still our system and it is imperfect, but it is working. It just sometimes takes a long time, sometimes it's a very painful process. But the judges, I feel, you know, that's they've got a very difficult situation where they have, they have lives balanced in the I mean, there are, there are, there are lives in the jackpot on a lot of these cases and and I think people feel like that at times. They don't take they don't see it as severe as as it is. But I totally, I disagree with it. I think the judges take it harder than anybody at times. I think

Judge James McCabria: 19:23

I can say without hesitation that Douglas County, Kansas, across the nation, when I've gone to conferences by and large, I'm impressed with the colleagues that I meet, the judges that I meet, the people who are doing this job, and especially the ones who are doing it for you know more than a term or two, who decided this is what I want to do for a living, they agonize over those cases where they see that people's lives are being impacted, whether that's right, civil or criminal or whatever the case may be. But. Are among the top tier of my experiences dealing with other judges around the country, more so in the state of Kansas, because that's what I've had the most contact with. What I would want people to hear is the judges of Douglas County care about the cases that are in front of sure they care about the people they care about the perceptions, yeah, of whether they're being fair, whether they're being even handed, and what they do. You You're commanded, and you can't let those public perceptions control your decision making. But you know, you're sensitive to them. You think about what those reactions are going to be. And, you know, one of my sort of guidepost quotes among judicial mine just went blank. People, you know, people in the Hall of Fame, of judicial quotes, Supreme Court justices, Oliver, Wendell Holmes, back in 1881 said the life, the life of the law, is not logic, it's experience, sure, you know. And they said it a different way. Years later that you know a painting. Life is a painting, not an equation, right? You know, so does the experience of living in Douglas County influence how I conduct myself as a judge? Does it affect every judge that's on the bench in Douglas County? I think that's part of the reason why one of the requirements to be a judge in Douglas County is you live in Douglas we want those community standards, those community sensibilities, to be part of what goes into the decision making. You're applying the law. You have to follow the law. But the life of the law is not just black and white statutes. There's going to be an element of, in certain cases, experience and sensitivity to what's the right thing to do. Sure that can't Trump but it has to be part of the equation. Absolutely,

Jay Armbrister: 22:13

I think, I think you make a great point too, is that, and I often say this to folks that work for me, is that the reason that this hurts, you know, because they've experienced something. The reason that it hurts is because you care. So I'm selfishly, I'm glad that it hurt you, because I like that you care. I need to know that you care about what you're doing. And I think that's a great point about judges, is that if they didn't care about the lives that were in the jackpot, you're right. I wouldn't want them as a judge. I think that that every every decision to alter a person's life should come with with a certain amount of of, not guilt, necessarily, but just like angst like this is going to hurt. But unfortunately, I have to, you know, I'm the one sitting here wearing the robe. This is my decision to make, and this is my decision that I that I will pass down but, but it should never come easily. And that's what I'm hearing you say, is that it never

Judge James McCabria: 23:02

does. You know, I'm hardly an AI expert. I just would say, I hope we never come to a day where we're, we're asking computers to make those decisions. Right? How much information you have, if you're a computer, you're running an equation, yeah, there's got to be that human element that's

Jay Armbrister: 23:17

exactly right, yeah, like umpires calling balls and strikes. I mean, the computer can get it right, but the human, the human element, is what we actually need back there. So no great, great points. And I think that's, I think that's a good thing for everybody to understand. I my own personal story through the courts has been, you know, I started in the jail, worked, worked for a month and a half and courtroom security, but when I was a jailer, especially in the old jail that used to be at the law enforcement center, we would actually take the inmates and walk them to the elevator. We would take them down to the courtrooms. We would walk in there, and we would sit with them, no gun or nothing, being uniform, and we would have to take notes on whatever was going on. And it wasn't until I was that closely involved with the with the court process that I realized how complicated it was, and I would, I would write little notes in my in my breast pocket for questions that I was going to ask judge Jean Shepherd, when she had a free moment, be like, What does pro se mean? What? What is ad litem? Why? Is what? Why? What is that? This or That? And of course, she was overly helpful and amazing to the dumb little kid that was asking her these questions. But I do think that that there is a lot of kind of, I don't say myth, but mystery, surrounding the judicial system. So so I wanted to ask just a couple of really nuts and bolts questions for people and myself, but we've already kind of discussed it a little bit. But like, what is the difference? Because we've heard about the district court judges versus magistrate judges versus other types of judges, and I know that that is different across states, different across counties. Counties even different within county sometimes. But what's kind of the what is the difference there? What do we when people talk about District Court, Judge? What are they talking about? Yeah,

Judge James McCabria: 25:09

so I again, will offer the disqualifier that I am not an expert, sure, yeah, and all the history that goes into it. But you know, the short, sort of Reader's Digest version that's been given to me, and a little bit of reading that I've done on it. And sometimes you get into these issues as you're researching different legal issues. But you know, there was a day when we didn't have a lot of law trained individuals, but we had courts. Yeah, we needed people to fulfill fill those positions. And so the magistrate judge position in Kansas is a judge of limited jurisdiction. You can hear certain types of cases. Usually. They can review search well, they can review search warrants. They can make certain judicial take certain judicial actions, but they're not required to be law trained. Sure have to be a graduate from an accredited law school. And I say to this day when people hear that, they seem in disbelief. To this day, one of the best judges I ever appeared in front of was in montgomery county, who was a magistrate judge, non law trained. He was a rancher. He owned an insurance business. He ran for that position because I don't know what his motives were, other than he told me, he just looked at it and thought the prior magistrates weren't taking the job seriously, and she thought it could be done well and done right. He spent a lot of time doing his research, more than anything, that was the judge that I saw caring about the decisions that he made right. Just anybody who appeared in front of him knew that anyway, that distraction aside, so the magistrate judge limited jurisdiction. They can only take actions that affect issues that occur within the judicial district. A district court judge is a judge who has complete jurisdiction over any issue that can come before the courts state of Kansas. So a district magistrate judge can do anything that a magistrate judge can do, plus more, and they have authority to issue rulings that can have impacts outside of their jurisdiction. They can authorize search warrants outside of their jurisdiction. So it's, it's a it's a anyone, I say it's a holdover from the old days, but in Kansas, we're facing a little bit of a crisis. It's easy to joke that there's too many lawyers these days. In some ways there are, but in some of the less populated districts in this state, it's hard to find an attorney right alone a district court judge, and so, you know, we've got the one district, one judge rule in Kansas, where every district has to have a district court judge, but some of those districts are three and four and five counties large, and the rest of the positions are filled up by magistrate judges. So it's a critical part of our system. There's I have nothing but respect for the people who put in for it. And again, by and large, I see those people taking their job seriously and doing the best they can. And, you know, in some of the communities, I think that's a very popular position, because people like knowing that somebody has their perspective right making those decisions. Sure, yeah.

Jay Armbrister: 28:35

And I think we, living in northeast Kansas, get a little spoiled at times, because we have, we are resource rich. We are we have large communities. We have everything you get west of, I know I always joked that Topeka is the edge of western Kansas, but really you get out past Auburn and and, you know some of those places, Alma, it really starts getting pretty densely, unpopulated, and like for us, the sheriff, sheriff's office, the state requires every county to have a coroner, and some places, the sheriff is the coroner. There's a there's a sheriff in Montana, I'm not making this up. His name is Sheriff Dutton, Leo Dutton, but on his business card, it says, Sheriff Leo Dutton, Sheriff and coroner. He is not a doctor. You do not have to have a medical license. You do not have to be certified to be a coroner. And, you know, and people are like, no way that can't be. But again, that's because that was born out of necessity. You get out west, there's just not everybody that can do those kind of things that we have at our fingertips. So, yeah, I think we we lose perspective up here, because we have everything we need. You know, right here within we've got the capital 40 minutes one way, and downtown Kansas City 40 minutes another way. So we're pretty, pretty fortunate. Back to the judges. Now we do. We don't have any magistrate judges in Douglas County. Is that? Correct now, but we do have Pro Tem judges now. What is, what is the difference there?

Judge James McCabria: 30:05

So the County Commission has been very supportive of the judiciary. You know, there's, I guess I could try and articulate the issues with how county commissions and have to support state funded judges and

Jay Armbrister: 30:27

courts unfunded mandates. Is that what we're talking about?

Judge James McCabria: 30:29

So, you know, not every district has the support that, as far as I can tell. Historically, Douglas County has had, and starting sometime well before I got on the scene, there was a pro tem position that was part time that just sort of handling wrote matters, that freed the district court judges up to do other work, and over time that's developed into a full time position, we've had judge Peggy Kittle was A pro tem judge. Before she became district court judge, we've had some of our so we've had the example of a pro tem judge becoming an appointed district court judge, the reality of modern case loads and complexities of those case loads. We now have two Pro Tem district court judges. They're totally funded by the county commission. They're hired by the district court, nominally by me, but of course, it's a process of interview with our judges and discussion among our judges. And you know, I don't think that we could function. Could we get the job done if we had to without those extra positions, I think we could. Does it allow us all to do a better job and to be more specialized and be more thoughtful? Absolutely? So sure we have, by statute we're allowed to appoint Pro Tem judges. That's what we've done. We, you know, as Chief Judge, I make the decision on what assignments they receive. I'm glad to say that we have two very smart, very dedicated people, and they're handling case types that I think are exactly suited to them and help us be able to do everything else that we have to do, sure, sure.

Jay Armbrister: 32:18

And what, what is there a limitation on them, like they couldn't take a death penalty case or Well, or is it completely up to the chief judge? It's

Judge James McCabria: 32:27

up to the chief okay. Okay, it is up to the chief judge. And you know, I'm gonna make those I think any chief judge here would make those decisions. And historically, before me, I wasn't the chief judge who started this pro tem appointed position. I've inherited it. I see the value of it. I think every, I think every judge in every district should be a chief judge for a while, because it opens your eyes up to so many things that you don't ever for sure think about. But right. No, those assignments are going to go to district court judges. And, you know, it's, it's a matter of experience and perspective on who you have in those positions, how to hold them accountable. And those are things that I think we've developed that work well here, yeah, so,

Jay Armbrister: 33:15

if, if Douglas County. So we have, what I can't remember, we have seven district court judges,

Judge James McCabria: 33:20

seven state district court,

Jay Armbrister: 33:22

yeah, yeah. And if, if, if. And I kind of know the answer, but I'm just gonna, I'm gonna ask it as if I don't if, if I feel like the system is completely bogged down. The courts are overworked, and they're, they're packed full. We need it. We need two new judges. Who would I have to convince and how would that what would that process look like to get a district court judge or two added on? Because this is a fight we we waged for the last few years.

Judge James McCabria: 33:52

Well, having been part of that fight, if I knew the answer, I might have more success. Yeah, it's the Supreme Court makes the decision about how many divisions district courts have, sure office of judicial administration is their administrative wing. You know, they they do a very good job of trying to administer courts in a state as diverse as Kansas, we have what are sometimes referred to as the frontier districts, our urban districts, mid level districts, you know, and you know, comparing the workload in Douglas County versus Gove county versus Ford County, you can do it in a very abstract sense, but at that abstract level, they've told us that the workloads are per Judge or evenly distributed. But when you get into the actual work a day, machinations of any particular district and the demands that I think come with, the more densely populated you are, and complexities of what happens, I think that starts to fall apart. So I. Our own perspective is we would definitely be able to utilize at least one more district court judge. I think in many ways, that's and I've made that request as Chief Judge more than once, and I get handed the abstract comparisons and so I understand where they're coming from, sure, but it's up to the Supreme Court and office of judicial administration,

Jay Armbrister: 35:28

sure. So ultimately, because the district court judges, you are a state employee, that's correct, yeah. And so I think that's where people kind of get confused, in that if we want a new judge in a new courtroom and a new division, it has to come from the state, and they have to agree to pay for it, and and the fight that we had also was was, and I'm paraphrasing, and correct me if I'm wrong, but basically, they said, even if we were going to give you a new judge, you don't even have a space for a new courtroom. So we're probably not even going to entertain it until you have a space for another courtroom, which has led us to where we are today with the building, but, but that is, I think, what is good for people to understand is that Douglas County saw that we were struggling with the shortage of judges and the fact that it was bogging the system down and creating a longer system. That's where Douglas County stepped in and says, Okay, how can we fix help this? And that was worth we funded as a county, one at it at first, now two district Pro Tem judges to help ease the work the workload. So, right? And I think, I think that's, that's, that's something that people don't understand. And

Judge James McCabria: 36:34

I don't mean to misstate, we're not alone in the state. Oh no, but in terms of supporting to the degree that they do, I think Douglas County stands out. Oh,

Jay Armbrister: 36:45

I totally agree. And they've, they have been so good to me as an agency as well, because being the county, we're stuck in between city and state governments, and we end up kind of being a catch all. But the the state loves to send down unfunded mandates, and then the city likes to say that this doesn't really fit our purview, so it needs to go to the county. And we become kind of this weird hodgepodge dumping ground of these weird of this, these anomalies at times. And I've always just, I mean, in my four years has been, I've been just so grateful for the county that they're supportive, but also that we have we're county of means, you know, and I get it because I talked to other sheriffs. There's 104 sheriffs across the state, and I don't know of any of them that that are as fortunate as I am, in my opinion, but to hear them talk about their tax base and their their budget and how hard it is to get more money because there's just no money to be had, it makes me realize just how fortunate I am to be, live, work, operate inside this, this county, so,

Judge James McCabria: 37:47

so which, you know, goes to the point of that's not to say there aren't problems, right, not coming. There's not things we can do better, but among the choices, it's a pretty good place to be. And I say that about when people look at the judiciary overall and they think there's criticisms, there's things we could do better, there's things that anybody can feel like, why don't they do it this way? That's okay. We like those criticisms, but give me something better, sure. And I think that's where, yes, where the arguments start

Jay Armbrister: 38:16

to fall. Oh, and I think, and, and I think that there's just so much that people just don't understand. You know, any problem that I've as any most problems that I've found where people have a disagreement or are angry about something that we did or did not do, if they're willing to have the conversation at the end of it, after transparency and education, most of the time, almost always, they're like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't know that. You know, that makes sense. Now I'm still mad about it. Don't get me wrong. You still screwed this up, but I see now how that that this just is the way it is. So I think

Judge James McCabria: 38:48

that's so important for people to understand how the process happened that wasn't the fix wasn't in and people weren't heard. It's here's what happened. And actually, there's plenty of research that shows, as long as people understand how you got to that outcome as a judge, even if they didn't get the outcome that they wanted, they will be more accepting of your decision. Sure, and if you don't explain yourself, yeah, have that transfer,

Jay Armbrister: 39:14

yeah. I mean, sentencing grid is a great example. People like, Well, why didn't you throw throw away the key? This person did this, this and this, I have to fit it within this box. Now, there are ways to move outside of that box that take a lot of work, but ultimately it has to be within this box. I was only allowed to give them this to this, somewhere in this range and and I think a good example of that too is a conversation that you had with me to to explain something that I didn't understand because it seemed so simple, and it was about failures to appear, somebody fails to appear in court, whether it be for nefarious reasons, or they just simply didn't have a ride, or they just forgot whatever had to work the plant the. You know that is a big that is a big utilizer of some resources when it comes to warrants being arrested, and people have to sit in, sit in jail, and and, and there's been a lot of movement and talk around, how can we avoid this? And so I came to you with with a proposal base, because, like every month, each judge has an Amnesty Day. You failed to appear in my court sometime in this last 60 days, you can come in, present yourself in front of me, and I'll get you a new court date. No more warrant will lift it, but if you fail to appear again, you know, and I to me in this little brain, it was just like, Man, this makes perfect sense, but after talking through it with you, realizing that a judge simply cannot see or interact with a client, with a with a defendant without their counsel present. I mean, like, it's just it cannot happen. And I was like, well, then that that shuts this whole idea down. Now that I understand that I realized that I have to, we have to figure out a different way. But in up into that point, it was like, Man, this makes perfect sense. Why wouldn't we do this? And so I I just, I really appreciate the fact that it was it's as simple as explaining it, but also it's frustrating, like, Gosh darn it. It just seems so easy. Why can't we just do this? But that's the way the system is set up. And so it is. It's a phrase I keep catching myself. This is the game by which we must play now. And so it's just kind of an example of why things can be frustrating, but also why they happen the way they do, and it's for a reason at times, even though it may be frustrating as I'll get out, yeah and

Judge James McCabria: 41:27

about that like, I think there's maybe some other aspects of that. I know that there's districts that have such dockets. What do you want to achieve out of that? Yeah, and you know, if it's just to reduce the number of outstanding warrants that you have, you can, you can make it look pretty good, but you're not really addressing some of the underlying issues to it. What I would say is, there's a there's a, it's not quite a maxim in the law, but it's a long standing sort of English common law tradition that we value the process more over the substance when it comes to people's liberty interests. And you know, when I was in law school and I heard somebody say, you know, it's better that 10 guilty people go free than that one innocent person should suffer harm. You think yourself, I don't like that equation. Of course we should, but what that phrase is telling us is, right, we're more concerned with the process. We're more concerned that you're not overstepping into people's lives, even at the risk of sacrificing the idea that maybe that guilty person goes free, free. Yeah. So it's a mindset of understanding the balance between the practical outcomes that we all want. Sure. If that's the way I were to prioritize my decisions, I would have a whole different system in place. But I'm constrained, and every judge has to be constrained by first the Constitution and then the law, and applying those things in the way that achieves that balance. Sure, when we discussed the idea of those dockets, I mean, people show up. You don't know what day they're going to show up. You don't you'd have to go track down what was the posture their case. There may have been right reasons why, in that particular case, you wouldn't just on the spot, remove, withdraw that warrant. And so it's time resources and getting it right, yeah, in addition to, you can't just engage people who have counsel right, or may say things that are going to make their situation worse, or do something that's going to make their situation worse. So it's all that balance, sure,

Jay Armbrister: 43:36

no. And it's, it's a, you know, that is an ever evolving discussion as as we speak. I know that some, some folks have really taken it, taking it on so and we look to, we hope to have some, some workarounds, but, but ultimately, we got to figure out ways to get folks to come to come to court, you know, and, and that's, that's a whole nother episode, a whole another day. And

Judge James McCabria: 43:55

anybody who's maybe watched some of the discussions at CJC has heard this, but it's worth repeating. We looked at our fair to appear numbers. And the number of times you can miss court right and have a chance to make it right without a warrant coming out for you is, I would put that up against any place in the state of Kansas, 100% Absolutely. And you know, the ability to informally resolve those, if you can remember who your attorney was, and get yourself back on the docket. Yeah, there are ways to handle Sure, yeah. So we've, we've made, I always willing to think of other ways to do stuff, but the way we're handling our failures to appear is it's not because we're not thinking about it, or because we don't care about the impacts right warrants, either on the people or the law enforcement has to serve them, or, yeah, sure, all of those things, yeah.

Jay Armbrister: 44:53

Well, you know. And we did kind of an informal poll one time within one of our housing units inside the jail for. Were people, of people who were in on failure to appear alone, no other charges, no nothing else. And I can't remember if we spoke to 13 folks, it was somewhere in that of that 100% of them all said I knew when I had to be a court. I just wasn't going. I was spun out. I was paranoid. I was having a break. I thought I was convinced I was going to go to jail if I went I wasn't ready to detox. Those were the reasons given and, and I think that that's kind of another thing, is that, and that was an unscientific, you know, Doodle poll, basically. But I think that's also part of the narrative. Is that it was, it was that I just didn't have daycare. I had to work that day. It was my lawyer didn't tell me the date. And I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but it's I feel like we we lose sight of which is the exception and which is the rule. So

Judge James McCabria: 45:54

and every judge in Douglas County understands those practical realities, right? And if it's your first time failing to appear. Yeah. You know, it's not the likelihood that you're going to get that warrant. If the lawyer says, Hey, I've been in touch and I don't know why they're not here. Judge, can we reset this? That's going to be the default, not 100% My goodness, you didn't follow my order to appear, and I don't care what your reasons

Jay Armbrister: 46:19

were. Oh, yeah. Oh, I can't, I can't imagine, think of how many times I sat, especially the 130 docket days, where some of those got very long, and the attorney be like, I just talked to my client, but I don't know why they're here. Okay, we're just going to move you to the bottom of the stack, and we're going to go through everybody else and make sure they get here in time. You know, I've seen that 1000 times over, rarely, I will never seen the judges. Know, I called it right now. I

Judge James McCabria: 46:42

think that goes back to this is a district where the community would expect their judges to act in that way. Sure. Oh, yeah, totally

Jay Armbrister: 46:49

agree. Yeah. I, I do. And this is, again, this is me being kind of sour. I think at times, the voices demand things that they're already getting people, people want us to be human and compassionate and and I, I see that happening, but sometimes it it's just not what gets seen

Judge James McCabria: 47:10

well until they get the chance to talk to somebody who's in it. Like you said, more often than not, they're like, Oh, I didn't even know that part of the equation. That's good to know. Yeah, most people's expectations and demands, I think, of the judiciary are reasonable, sure, and for whatever reason, they think it's not happening that way, yeah? Because so much of the world can be unreasonable and right? And that's that's somehow a dark concern, that maybe things aren't as they should be. Yeah? And I'm not saying everything's perfect, but by and large, the concerns that I hear people express I'm able to say to them, You know what? Let me tell you, here's how we do deal with that, right? And not just here, but in a lot of places, but yeah, especially, yeah, and mindful of those, I

Jay Armbrister: 47:52

totally agree, totally agree. Well, we've gone on long enough I cannot. Thank you enough. I always ask the same stupid question, of all the people come on here, and I want to ask you, you've heard it, if you've but it is. It's very but I'm also going to ask you a separate question at the end, because I know you like certain things, but, but I want to know and you learn so much about people, what was your first concert? What was your last concert, and what was your favorite concert? And they can be all the same, or they can be, I don't go to concerts.

Judge James McCabria: 48:23

First concert was supposed to be Johnny Cash. What? Yeah, missed it. So what?

Jay Armbrister: 48:29

Like, you missed it, like you got high and didn't make it, or he did. He got high and didn't make it, like the car broke down. We

Judge James McCabria: 48:36

We were but it was at the big rodeo in Wyoming rodeo. Oh, yeah, yeah, Cheyenne, yeah. And something happened, and they did a switch with the Statler brothers. So instead of Johnny Cash, we saw the Statler brothers, which was a one concert. What

Jay Armbrister: 48:54

year would this have been? I mean, roughly 87 okay, sure, sure.

Judge James McCabria: 48:59

Something like that last concert I went to, been a performance over at KU symphony. Can't remember how long it

Jay Armbrister: 49:10

sure was like at the LEAD Center, the lead Oh yeah, I love that place.

Judge James McCabria: 49:14

And then favorite concert? Well, the favorite concert that I had the chance to go to and didn't. Was the opportunity to see Willie Nelson in a bar about times the size of this room in Austin. Oh, my God, I made the decision I should go do something else. Oh, that's so dumb. That's my biggest I say is my favorite concert

Jay Armbrister: 49:38

Willie. So I got to see Willie at Liberty Hall, probably 10 or 15 years ago. Absolutely amazing. I'll never you know I am a music enthusiast. I love going to shows. It's still the best opening of a show I've ever seen where he's got that great big Texas flag up, and he breaks into whiskey River and that that thing drops, and they just start going. It's like, I mean, I'm. Just goose bumps thinking about it was amazing. And on top of that, you're like, that's Willie Nelson. Like, that's the dude,

Judge James McCabria: 50:09

oh, charisma and the talent every

Jay Armbrister: 50:11

Sure. Oh, he's, he's everything, yeah, and it's, I've still got, I still, I inherited all my dad's records, and it's all that 70s country gold, you know, the Wayland and the willies and the Johnny's, and it's, I've also got a bunch of, you know, Mississippi John Hurt, and a bunch of old, old blues stuff. So they're just cherished because, because it's, like, it's, it's also my tie back to my dad is, like, he loved that same music. And now here I am watching, watching one of his, his idols, you know, it's just, it's just so, so great. But yes, I wish you would have gone to that show. Well, thank you again for for joining us. There was a separate question. Oh, well, yes, that's right. There was, well, I've kind of lamented on how to but I know that you're a fan of Western culture and Western so other than, other than Louis L'Amour, who is your favorite Western author? Or do you have one?

Judge James McCabria: 51:08

Larry McMurtry, high

Jay Armbrister: 51:10

up. Oh my gosh, me too. The Lonesome Dove, yeah, of course. Series, yeah, the Comanche was Cheyenne moon, or something? Moon, Comanche moon. Yeah, flower.

Judge James McCabria: 51:20

Good stuff. My favorite Western movie of all time is The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, the Jimmy Stewart character who plays the lawyer who comes out west and, yeah, seeks justice. I've just from an early age, some sort of inspiration,

Jay Armbrister: 51:36

yeah, it's, well, it's a cowboy Atticus Finch. I mean, yeah, good, honest lawyer, doing the, doing the good work. So okay, well, that, I think that that actually is, is perfect for you, this Man Who Shot Liberty violence. So I can't, I can't believe it's not tombstone. That's the greatest country, that's the greatest western movie. Okay. Well, thank you so much for coming on. We can't. Thank you enough for the work you I personally have always just, well, I'm just glad you're in the position that you're in so and we're lucky to have you.

Judge James McCabria: 52:07

Time went fast. I, you know, I'd love to have the opportunity to talk about our specialty courts. Oh, man, yeah, we do, but it's a topic that I can talk about for a long time. Sure appreciate. Well,

Jay Armbrister: 52:18

let's, how about this. Let's just make a promise to do that again, and maybe we can even get judge Bitcoin. Pcorney or judge judge Hanley to join us. And we could, we could talk about all that stuff I would love to, and I think that's great for the people to hear about. So thank you so much. All right. You.