Episode 03 - Minds & Methods: Lt. Rich Qualls and Master Corrections Officer Kyle Appleby

In episode 03 of the "View from 100" podcast, Sheriff Jay Armbrister and guests Lt. Rich Qualls and Master Corrections Officer Kyle Appleby of the DGSO Training Division discuss the importance of training in law enforcement. 

They highlight the evolution of training methods, emphasizing the need for foundational skills and continuous education. The Douglas County Sheriff's Office has an eight-week corrections academy followed by eight weeks of on-the-job training for new corrections officers, which is the most extensive of its kind in the state. They also address the challenges of training young officers and the importance of mental health support, and the advantages of starting your law enforcement career in corrections. 

The conversation also touches on the agency's competitive pay package and recruitment strategies.

Transcript

Copy

Jay Armbrister: 0:00

There. So it's live. Oh yeah, yeah. Now we got it okay, but I'm gonna do it again. Yeah, okay, all right. So welcome back to episode number three of the view from 100 podcast. I am your sheriff and the host, Jay Armbruster. I am fortunate enough to have not only a couple of friends here with me, but two guys that I've worked with for many years. And we're going to delve into the training aspect of not just Douglas County Sheriff's Office, but corrections and operations as a whole for the state and country. But so training, we always talk about resources. Every everybody needs resources, but everybody agrees that the number one resource that every agency, every entity, has is their people and their staff. But what you do with those people is what makes your place go or not go in some cases. And so training has been probably the number one priority when it comes to how do we make sure that our folks are out there doing the right thing, the right way, for the right reasons. And so it kind of gets lost in the shuffle that everybody assumes that we train, but nobody really knows how, and we're what sometimes. So I think this is a perfect opportunity for us to kind of shed some light on that, but also talk about how things have changed over the years. You know, in 1998 in the late 1900s when I started with sheriff's office, I went to work and they put they they put me with a training officer for two weeks, and I followed her around, and then I was on my own. When I went out on patrol, they had started develop a field training officer program, but it was, I think it was six weeks or something, and they passed me around to different people. But, you know, the training that I got back then was, was unique. I guess we should say to how the were the world operates today. I can still remember my very first training officer. We had a an in car camera, which was fairly new technology in 2000 and he said, he said, Look, you can use that camera if you want, but don't you ever use that microphone, because it's just going to get you in trouble. And that was the pervasive that was, that was the belief back then, because you know, you could say and do things that you know you didn't want people to see. And so I feel, you know, obviously, that culture has changed and moved all the way to the other end of the spectrum, which is good for us, because it holds us accountable. It makes us much, much better at what we do. But also I personally, through my career, figured out because I worked a lot of night shifts for a lot of years, I was on nights for like, six years straight at one point, and I worked a lot of DUI cases, and I found that a juries didn't believe you if you didn't have video, and that the CSI effect is real. But also is that if you had a video, you really didn't have to write your report, because it told the story for you. And judges, juries, attorneys and defendants, all were like, yeah, that yeah, the only thing you can't do is you can't smell the drunk, but you can see everything else, hear it all. And so I got to where I wouldn't work without a camera or a microphone, because I knew that it just made it protected me, and so that just kind of a story about how training has shifted over the years. So, So enough talking about me, but So to introduce my guest today, I have Lieutenant rich Qualls, who comes to us, you've been with us. Well, I'll let you tell us how. I'll let you tell us all about yourself, and then master corrections. Kyle Appleby, who's been with us for 17 to 50 years, I can't remember, somewhere in that ballpark, somewhere in there, and I just want, I'm gonna start with you rich, to just tell the people who you are, where you come from. Why are you here? Why do you stay? And what do you do? Okay,

Rich Qualls: 4:00

my name is Rich, quals, and currently I am assigned to the training division as the lieutenant for the sheriff's office. I've worked as a deputy, a sergeant and a lieutenant on in corrections and patrol, and then I worked as the admin, the operations administrative lieutenant, yes, which is sort of a catch all position downtown. So supervised, IA, investigations, civil process, courtroom, security, records and anything else that comes up.

Jay Armbrister: 4:38

Yeah. Where'd you come from? Oh, okay,

Rich Qualls: 4:41

yeah, a little background, yeah, what brought you here? What brought me here? Okay, so I know where you came from and these people, yeah, that's right. So in I was born and raised in Southeast Kansas, rural, rural, and I was ready to get out of

Jay Armbrister: 4:59

four. Scott, Columbus, Pittsburgh. Chanute, Okay, gotcha Absolutely.

Rich Qualls: 5:03

I was ready to get out of high school. I was done. So I figured out the scheme was my senior year in high school, I could leave and go take EMT courses. Oh, yeah. So I went and get out to get out of class, right, and get a real job. So I went and did that. I really liked the first responder aspect down there. You know, there's not a lot of resource, especially then there was hardly any resources. So, you know, the ambulance left right from the ER, and so you'd help out in the ER, you know, when you could, and learned a lot. I mean, obviously you come out of high school, you don't have any idea what the real world has in store for anything? Yeah. So you know, as I got older, I I'm young and young and dumb, and it looks like the cops are having more fun, so I decided that's what I'm gonna do. So sure i That's 2009 and so in 2009 it was hard to get a job. It was hard to get a job in law enforcement. You had to apply everywhere they could tell you, you know, hey, we're Topeka. PD, we got eight spots. Here's the testing dates. You show up, and there's hundreds of applicants. I mean, it was a very different environment. And so the job I got was in Joplin, Missouri. And Joplin is a rough town. Was Jasper County, no Jasper and Newton. Oh, new Okay, got both. And so I worked there for about four years. Got a lot of experience. I was there during the tornado. I was gonna say they had a hell of a tornado down there. Yeah, and working almost all evening, night shifts, you know, because I'm young and dumb and want the action, and that's where it is. So, so, yeah, so I bid those. I got a lot of experience. I mean, my my first four years, I was just running call to call, and then, like, probably 50% 60% of our department, I met a woman and

Jay Armbrister: 7:04

a story as old as time.

Rich Qualls: 7:06

So obviously what we want to do is, is go where she wants to go. So so I was still, I still wanted the action, and so I got a job with Johnson County Sheriff's Office, and went up there, and it was good job. I really, like, really respect their department. We work a lot with them, obviously being our neighbors, and nothing but good experiences there, sure. But for me, personally, growing up in a small town when I moved there, and I mean, 500 deputies, you know what? 1718, law enforcement agencies like, you know, you you people, bring folks into us, and I'd never see them before. Haven't seen them since, you know, I'd go to the courthouse to testify, and those guys have never seen me, right? And and so that wasn't for me, sure, you know, it was a great agency, but it wasn't for me personally, so my also a story as old as time for cops. My now ex was from Lawrence.

Jay Armbrister: 8:12

I can't believe it. It's

Rich Qualls: 8:15

truly shocking. So we were living over here at the time, so I've applied for Douglas County, and, you know, it's been a great experience. It fits me a lot better. We're big enough that you can do a lot of things, but we're small enough that you always know somebody, or you know somebody who

Jay Armbrister: 8:34

knows somebody. We are the biggest small town in Kansas by a long exactly. So, so there's a lot of

Rich Qualls: 8:41

best of both worlds. You know, you get, you get to do the exciting things, but at the same time, there's a lot of freedom, because we don't absolutely, you know, our resources are usually stretched pretty thin. So if you, if you want to take on something, you can do it

Jay Armbrister: 8:55

absolutely, absolutely, well, perfect. That's great intro. So we're gonna go to Kyle, wow,

Kyle Appleby: 9:03

I know you're still I can't wait to hear it again. I'm not sure my resume is gonna match. Yeah, nope. Well, my name is Kyle Appleby, currently signed to the Training Division, sure, until the boss

Jay Armbrister: 9:17

man, he's not

Kyle Appleby: 9:21

good. I'm from Bolivar, Missouri, little small town, Southwest by Springfield. Isn't

Jay Armbrister: 9:28

that where Brad Pitt's from? It is the two best things that come out of Missouri. Brad Pitt and I 70, that's it. Yeah. Have you ever noticed both their big cities are on each end and look like they're trying to get out. They are.

Kyle Appleby: 9:42

They are trying to get out. Yep, Governor. I worked for the governor. That was my first job. Was that Polk County Sheriff's

Jay Armbrister: 9:49

Office, Jeff City, I guess then, or was it in in Bolivia? Well, he was

Kyle Appleby: 9:52

our sheriff at the time. Mike Parsons, oh, so he hired me for my first job. Really, I was working at jail at night, going to high school during the day. For sure.

Jay Armbrister: 10:01

So, yeah, 18 a story that is not

Kyle Appleby: 10:04

as old as time. So I got a lot of experience there. Got to see some of my friends get her, you know, yeah, come through and yeah. Got to process them, take their homework from their bag,

Jay Armbrister: 10:14

copy it. You might want to check number nine and 16 when you get out.

Kyle Appleby: 10:21

So, yeah, that's where I was born and raised. Came up here in 2006 to the sheriff's office and been in corrections my bread and butter since then.

Jay Armbrister: 10:30

Yeah. So, so the part that I want the people that are listening to understand is that is that when an agency and it's kind of a difference between the sheriff's office and a PD, and I've obviously, I'm very biased towards towards sheriff's offices, but in a police department, you have patrol officers, you have supervisors, you have detectives, but maybe you have a training unit, maybe you have evidence, some other things. But in the sheriff's office, we have all those things too, plus we have an entire another half of our organization in the Corrections Department, which is our jail, where you can make a career and excel and and we are. We're fortunate to have people like like Kyle and some others who have, who have dedicated their careers to the corrections division, and it it's one of those deals is like the jail kind of exists in this weird, little nebulous world that people pretend doesn't exist all the time until something bad has happened, or someone that is connected to them is involved in that. But for the most part, jails are operated completely out of sight, out of mind, hoping that nobody ever hears about us, because that means something bad. And that's kind of kind of a we're kind of trying to make that change to where we're trying to kind of throw our jail and our jail staff back out into the sunlight where they belong, because it is a very difficult job. It is a very rewarding job, if done correctly, but it's also extremely high leverage. When it comes to civil litigation, you want to get sued run a jail. I mean, I'm not kidding you. It is. It's unbelievable, the things that that a sheriff and a sheriff's department will get sued for, but also the the rules that a jailer must follow in order to make sure that people are treated with respect, but their rights are not infringed upon. I mean just something as simple as US Mail, making sure that they have their mail, and if we take their mail from them, for some reason, we have to follow. It has to fall into these very narrow places and and you can, and we, I we have been sued over over mail, and even I'm not saying successfully, but we've always, we always make sure and learn more and make sure that we are doing it right. But it's, it's little things like that that people just don't think about. And so, and also, as our world has changed in the last decade, our jails have become the de facto mental health institutions. And so the stakes are even higher because we're dealing with folks who are just some they are simply mentally unhealthy. They're dangerous. And so it's not, it's not the Barney or the Andy and Barney locking up the drunk Otis every night and him letting himself out every day that those days may have existed at some point and not not for me, but that is absolutely not the case anymore. And and the jail is a place where we start people and they work their way through, but sometimes they move on, sometimes they stay there, because that's just what works for them. And and so we're very so lucky to have you and the others who have chosen the corrections division as the as their, their their move. So appreciate that. Yeah, absolutely no. I appreciate you so but I guess really where the conversation I think ought to go for people to understand is training. You know, anytime we have a major situation nationwide, it always comes back to, how were these officers trained? How were these deputies and trained? What is your training? And in the state of Kansas, we have being a certified. And I guess I better make sure to make sure make this distinction as well. When we talk about corrections officers or jailers. They are a civilian employee. They are not a certified law enforcement officer, but when we talk about deputies, they are a certified law enforcement officer, but they can be working in the jail or they can be working on the road. And so when we talk about training, you know, jail staff corrections officers, the requirement for them is very minimal to operate and work within the state, but if you're a certified law enforcement officer, you have to get your 40 hours every year. You have to qualify. You have to do these certain things, I guess, talk to me about what is, what are the requirements across the state of Kansas, for training, for uniform, for. Personnel, both corrections and deputies, but also, what's the difference between what's required by the state versus what we do as an agency, by policy or by practice?

Rich Qualls: 15:10

Okay? The Yeah, all right. We'll see. We'll see, if I remember all these so for a deputy, for a certified law enforcement officer in the state of Kansas, 40 hours of sorry, initially, you have to attend the Kelly TC or satellite a cashier run by the state. You have to be 21 you have to complete that they sign off. The State gives you a commission. So now, after that point every year, every training year, you have to get 40 hours in continuing education that includes a firearms qualification and bias, anti bias, bias based policing, bias based police training for corrections officers, yeah, there is no requirement exactly in the state. That's the point I want. There is, there is you can start 18 years old, start when you're 18 years old. And if you, if your agency does not supply that training to you, you get a set of keys and a pat on the back and good luck, yeah, and

Jay Armbrister: 16:20

a well wish. So, so, but, but in the in our agency we've built, and I'm not about to take any credit for this. This started long ago, but has been built for years, where we as an agency viewed that opportunity to take those folks who are starting, because let's take this is almost exclusively entry level folks who are coming in just like me. Had I was a mechanic, had been married for a couple of years, and I thought that I would give it a try, so I went to work for the sheriff's office, and they put me in the jail, having never worked a night shift in my life. Had never, you know, and like like Kyle, I walked into a jail about 10% full of my friends but family, you know. And there's no requirement on on that, on that person who's entering that jail setting, so. But as an agency, we were like, man, we really need to make sure that these folks are trained up before they hit the floors. And so initially, I think it started as like a three or four week, I think so, something like that. And then when we're talking, like 1015, years ago, but now kind of talk through, what is our what does our jail Academy look like?

Rich Qualls: 17:36

I'll give some big picture. You give the details? Yeah, absolutely. So now our structure is eight weeks of initial classroom, academy training, followed by eight weeks of on the job. We'll probably start referring to it as JTO, or where they have a jail training officer that is assigned one trainee, and they work together. And during that eight weeks, you know, it starts out that the trainee is doing nothing and watching the jail training officer, and by the end of it, and there's a process, by the end of it, the training officer is doing nothing except evaluating the trainee to make sure that they can do the job independently. And well, don't get hurt and don't get hurt, right? And so, you know, I, my first cop Job was a is at a PD, and then I went into corrections, and I would have the learning curve would have been cut down so much if I would have started, oh, my God, in the jail, yes, if I would have started learning those skills first, I would have been so much better off, not that, not that my path was bad, right? Yeah. So we look at the corrections Academy as foundational Law Enforcement Training percent. So we are. We're teaching, you know, not only what the federal, state statute and policy requires, but we are, we're trying to impart to them how to how to think like a cop, sure, right? Because while the job is different and requires different skill sets, the mindset is is exactly the same. You know, it's the same people that succeed in these roles. So it's foundational. We're teaching, you know, risk mitigation, threat evaluation, critical thinking skills, right? So we can, so we can solve these problems, in addition to the to the tactics, and, hey, here's actually how you handcuff somebody, right, right? Here's, here's how you investigate, you know, when something gets stolen, yeah. So, no, I

Jay Armbrister: 19:38

think, I think it's, I love the term foundational, because really, at our core, we are communicators. And no place on earth will a law enforcement officer learn better how to communicate with somebody than inside a jail setting I've long said, and so in my personal story is. That I went, I was in Pittsburgh, Kansas, going to college for to be a mechanic, and I had to stay, I had to move out of my dorms, because during the holidays they would, you know, scrub down all the disgustingness that little boys leave behind. And but I had a job, so I needed a place to stay for a week and a half or something. And some family friends had a son that lived there, and he was a Crawford County deputy, and so that was my first exposure to law enforcement that didn't involve me dumping out my beer or signing for a ticket and and so. But he said he was like, man. He's like, You ought to think about it. He's like, you kind of, you know, you seem like you'd be good at it, but he's like, but my advice is simple, go to a sheriff's office. He said you're going to go into jail. You're going to learn who's bad. You're going to lose, learn who's not bad, but did something bad, and you're going to learn who's dangerous, like truly dangerous, and then you're going to learn how to work with all of them, because you have to, you absolutely have to. Plus, he said, sheriff's office, you know, I have so many more options and things to do. And when I came to work, I just followed that path. I didn't question it, and it wasn't until later where I would see young, young cops hitting the streets alongside me who didn't have the experience that I had, who were just simply struggling to even figure out what is going on and who to even talk to, whereas I'm like, hey, you need to talk to that guy. You need to get hurt over here, you know, and so I have that has been driven home through the years to where we send our, you know, our corrections officers who are being promoted to Deputy to an academy, and they've got 234, years in a jail setting, and then they go into these law enforcement situations, and they are perfectly comfortable talking to people and figuring things out, but also making decisions and taking control or charge, whereas these other folks have never had that. And I firmly believe that every PD officer should have to work for a week or two in their jail that they will be taking people to in order to graduate and become a patrol officer in the city, wherever they're at, because not only are you going to learn again who's the bad guy, who's not the bad guy, what you know, and that kind of stuff, but you're going to learn the jail staff too, and just you're going to get those skills. So that's never going to happen, obviously, but, but I think it's, it's part of it's, it's, it's one of the little things that sets sheriff's offices, and especially Douglas County Sheriff's Office, apart is that we come up, and I always like to use the joke that we're our agency is a bit like a tube of toothpaste, where all the good stuff is back here, and we have to keep squeezing it up and out the front in order to promote because we start people here on the foundation in the jail, And then as they move, they move up and out into these other roles, as opposed to just hiring people directly to patrol or hiring these people directly into supervisory roles or into detectives, they come from within. And we have that has been so beneficial for to keep our culture as a communicators and person first attitudes that has been essential for us. And I think that's the number one reason that we we kind of have the culture in the community trust that we do is simply because of the way we do the right things, the right ways, for the right reasons and and that was what was instilled in us as babies, and that's what we continue to instill people. And again, I'm going off again on a total tirade, but, and I don't even really remember where we were, but so, but about this, it really starts with this, this corrections Academy. So these people come to us and it's eight, eight weeks now, right? Yeah, eight weeks, classroom practical, plus then then the training officer stuff. So talk to me about the details of it, like, what are they what, what's required, but what do they get? Anyways? Well, they're gonna

Kyle Appleby: 23:47

get, they get a lot. We're very, very lucky to have the training division and have the support and the resources and the resource Absolutely, to put people through this. Yeah, you know, as you mentioned earlier, we hire 18 years old. You know, we're, hiring kids, yeah, I can say that with the white and my beard now,

Jay Armbrister: 24:05

Chrome. We like to call that Chrome.

Kyle Appleby: 24:08

Yeah. So we're hiring kids, and this is gonna be their first job. Might be their first law enforcement. This is a good start for them, but they don't know how to deal with someone who you know, some bad people redoing some bad people. Most good just made bad choices. Sure,

Jay Armbrister: 24:27

or they're they're good, but they've put something inside their body that has changed them fundamentally. So rough with the nicest person. Oh my gosh, I can I haven't I have names on the tip of my tongue, yeah, sober, I'd take you to dinner right now.

Kyle Appleby: 24:44

You know, it's a it's such a good experience for again, white my beard. We're now doing a generation who really has no communication skills. It's lacking what they do absolutely everything was from a keyboard or, you know, that's how they communicate. It sure. And we can't text our, you know, detainees, you know, we gotta deal with them. We gotta be, you know, communicate. And so I think that Academy is we're setting them up to succeed, sure, right? If you're back in the day, same when I first started, here's your keys. And, yeah, go right. Go for shadow, someone who probably didn't want anyone assigned to them, you know. So it's really awkward, 12 hour shift for sure, just watching someone just angry, yeah. So we designed this program that is is so unique that I don't know any other sheriff's office anywhere that has what we have, sure. And we're just doing so many cool things in this in this academy, just team building stuff and how to manage stress. You're gonna see things, hear things, smell things that you should never, ever have to see, hear or smell, yeah, but that is the field we're in, so we got to get them prepared for that. Yeah, that's

Jay Armbrister: 25:57

the reality of it. And, you know, we talk about hiring high school kids, and I think people lose the side of the fact that we actually had one. She still works for us. She's a deputy on patrol now, but she graduated high school on a Saturday or Sunday, and then started with us on, like, Monday. I mean, it was, and she turned into a great day, and she's great, and she's doing great, you know, but that doesn't always work out. We've had several, several issues, but, but these are children who are going are moving directly into a very adult and difficult job and and I think it's, I always joke that it's like every generation thinks the next generation is going to fail, like, you know, you know, as soon as you start saying, you know, kids these days, you've officially moved on to the generation that's the next one, and I am there. But it is. It's different. They were raised. Came up through a world that was just more disconnected, like the joke is, my mom didn't know where I was for most of the 80s, and well now we have live 360 and everybody knows where everybody's at, and you're always on camera. So it was, it was pretty easy for me to get away with that, but there, there they struggle with that. But also we, we're when you, when you hire entry level young kids, there is always a period of mourning for that person's loss of childhood. When I was a supervisor, especially in the jail. I noticed that when the new ones would come on after about six months to a year, you would see this kind of mourning process begin, where they realized that they were now an adult, they were now having to work, they were now needing insurance, they were now looking for someone to spend the rest of their life with, and life had changed. You know, Mom and Dad weren't buying groceries anymore. Weren't making, you know, having dinner for you. You didn't get to go to school at eight, off at three, do whatever you wanted after that. And so that's just another one of those little things that we we have to work through that is not a job specific deal, but it's something that affects their job, and we have to help, help make them see how this is all part of the process, and they're going to be okay. You're just going to have to accept that you're not a kid anymore. And, and, and we have real life consequences. This is not a game. You don't you don't get to hit the reset button. You don't get to you don't have another life. Or where the or the person on the other side does not have another life to go into the game further, and so the jail Academy is just the perfect place to ease into it, but to learn how to do it, but still have a little bit of a safety net or training wheels before you really hit the ground running. I mean, I'm not saying I wish I had when I was coming through, because I had a lot of freedoms and I was able to do a lot of things, but it really would have benefited me to have somebody with me a little bit more often. Be like, Hey, you might want to think about maybe not doing that ever again. Or, you know, maybe this is how you should handle that. Well,

Rich Qualls: 28:55

then in 2025 you know, if you're 18, you're Everyone makes mistakes, but if you're growing up, you're going to make a lot more mistakes. And in 2025 you can't it's you cannot make mistakes.

Jay Armbrister: 29:08

Margin for error is extremely thin, and I just said it last night at our citizen Academy, is that we as an agency do have and will make mistakes. And the reason that is is because we only hire human beings. They're the only people who can, they're the only ones who can, can, can do this job. But with that comes mistakes, but, but for us, it's always been kind of, what kind of a mistake was it? You know, was this something that you thought was right, you absolutely were doing your best, and it just turned out to be wrong, or it didn't work out. That's one thing. And then you tattled on yourself, and then we worked through we worked through it absolutely we were down with that. Or did you knowingly violate a rule or a law and then try to hide it? That is a different mistake and handled completely differently. And so the the main thing that I like to instill, especially in our young ones, is that you are going to make. Mistakes, the harder you work, the more mistakes or more potential you have for mistakes. We understand that. But if you do make mistake, own it, fix it, learn from it and move on, but also share it so other people can learn from it too. I think it was Van Helsing in in Dracula. He said, we learn. We learn not from our successes, but from our mistakes. And nothing made me a better cop, like a DUI cop, than getting my can I say I'm getting my ass kicked on the stand by a good defense attorney, because I took that out of there. And I'm like, Okay, I've I have to do this totally different same way with mistakes. I want people to learn just like I tried I was wrong. Here's what we need to do better. Here's what I'm going to do better. Here's what everybody needs to do better. And I think we've, we've really done a good job with the culture on getting that to happen. So absolutely, sorry. Very commentary. You have some

Rich Qualls: 30:53

things to say, I guess, apparently, that's good. Hey, you support training. So that's exactly you're the sheriff for me

Jay Armbrister: 31:02

absolutely. So I guess when it comes to and I know I don't want it to make it seem like we're only bragging on us, but you made the point is like there's not many other places doing this kind of thing, especially in the state of Kansas and and a that's because a lot of these we we in as a state. Douglas County is a large agency, right? Nationally, I would say we are a medium to medium small, probably, agency, because, you know, there's a lot of places we have 70 years, 78 sworn or something. Whereas you talk about like Johnson County has 500 you know, you go to New York, PD, and they got 5000 sworn you know, LA or however many they have. We are very small, but by the state standards for state of Kansas, we are a larger agency. And so we have, we have more resources. We have more funding, because our tax base is larger. You get out into the western part of the state, and they just simply don't have the tax base or the ability in the hiring pool that we do. So we are extremely fortunate. I totally get that but, but on the flip side is it's not something that we are required to do, right? We just feel like it's what's made it, what it is, what makes us the best agency for our community, and so that's why we really, really invest in it. Well,

Rich Qualls: 32:21

you know, we haven't talked about this, but again, training like admin Lieutenant is sort of a catch all right, like whenever you start dealing with training, then you're gonna, it's gonna go into all these other things. You're gonna go into equipment. Well, how do we get that? Well, now you're stuck right in grants. Well now we gotta do community events to do this. And then, then, now you guys are good at running events, so when we have something else. So recruiting, hiring, recruiting and retention also falls in our wheelhouse, you know. And so something that we have greatly benefited from the training that we provide is we were ragging on the kids earlier, about not being able to communicate with others, but something positive, especially about the younger people and young professionals you know, up to about, I'd say 30, if they know why They're doing something, yeah, they are. They will work hard at basically, I mean, much more than you know, if I, if I get an old cop who knows how to do the job, but is, you know, he just, he just wants to clock in, clock out and get paid. Yep, then I'll take the young kid that doesn't know anything, but wants to know the why, and then will dedicate themselves than that, and so by investing in the training, which we did, to better our own people, oh yeah, it has attracted these kids to us. We actually, we're not, I don't think we're full staff, right?

Jay Armbrister: 33:55

We're, well, our jail is getting full, but again, the tube of toothpaste, as it fills up, we'd end up pushing more out to patrol, right? And so we're still, we're still short there,

Rich Qualls: 34:04

so, right? And so in that process, you know, we're getting ready to to backfill. And so we opened up, and we got overwhelmed with applications, like we actually had to shut down some of the the campaigning that we were doing because, yeah, because kids are like, Hey, this is, yeah, I could do this, right? This makes sense to me.

Jay Armbrister: 34:23

Yeah. And the best recruiters we have are people who work for us. One of the biggest compliments I think, this agency has ever been paid, in my opinion, was when a young lady came to work for us, went up through the jail, and then all of a sudden, her mom came to work for us. At some point, she had told her mom, you ought to come work here. It's really cool. I mean, it's like, how does that conversation even happen? And and thank you for feeling like we are, we were safe enough that you would risk putting your mother.

Unknown: 34:53

I'm not gonna go that

Jay Armbrister: 34:55

far. For me, it's like, Mom, you can come work here, but I'm never working with you. I. Absolutely not. But no, and I think it's a great point too, about we, you know, as a society, we talk about millennials, but we're, we just basically mean entry level folks, people who are just starting out into the non academic world. I too, have found the positive that I, that I have seen in in those is that they're, they're a little distrustful as a whole, coming out of the gate, especially with folks in authority. But once you earn their trust or their respect or whatever, they are loyal to a fault at times, they once they are bought in, they are in and so I think that while they are difficult and unique in some aspects, at times, it doesn't really matter, because they are the future. So therefore, it is not on them to change. It is on how do we adapt to make them successful? Just because they're not going to do the job the way I did it and think it should be done doesn't mean it's wrong, and that's hard. That's a me problem. Like, that's hard for me to be like, No, you need to do this, because that's how I did it. But really, we're just, we're just creating an environment for them to learn how to be successful and do these things, maybe in their own way, or maybe they pull the TV off on their head a time or two, and they're like, that doesn't work. And then they're like, What was that thing you said about how you did it? You know, maybe they come back, but you have to have that trust and that loyalty for them to even be like, hey, all right, I can't figure this out. What are you guys? What do you think? And so I think, I think the millennials get a bad rap at times, but then again, sometimes they don't help themselves out.

Rich Qualls: 36:33

And we're actually past millennials. We're millennials

Jay Armbrister: 36:38

really, yeah, I am proud. Gen X, yeah, Gen X. I think we were the last generation to enter adulthood without any major technology, you know, without computers, really, and especially cell phones. And so it's, it was a different world. But it's also I mean, I when I was 14, my parents dropped me and my friend off at a Greyhound bus station at sixth and Michigan to ride the bus at on a Saturday morning to Emporia, Kansas to visit a friend of mine whose parent said they were going to pick pick us up. I would not drop my 14 year old child off at the gray had a Greyhound bus station that had to stop in Topeka on its way to Emporia, but it was at the time that's just what you did. It was no big deal. So the world has really, really changed. Something's good, some things maybe not. But So if, if you could whisper into the mind of every person in this community. One thing about what it is that you do or that this agency does that you don't think they know or understand. Like, I wish everybody knew this. One thing about me, us this, what would that be?

Unknown: 37:56

Very good question. Yeah, good, yeah. That's

Jay Armbrister: 37:59

you go first. Yeah. Thanks. Well, so like, like, under Sheriff Simmons, she said, when I asked her that, she said, I would want people to know that we are not the national narrative when it comes to law enforcement and policing, we see these things too, and that is not us, not so I thought that was an excellent answer. But something, where would you, where would you think? Where would you go with that? I think just

Kyle Appleby: 38:22

in the topic of this conversation that we were having today is the resources that we have for training. It is amazing. We are now getting asked by kltc to train other counties, other agencies, yeah, so they're now pulling from us. We're doing things correct, right? When we're getting calls saying, Hey, can you come I was in case Kansas City, Kansas training their officers a couple weeks ago. Sure, that's unique. That is, that is amazing that we're we have those resources, and we have the staff and the people that we have working for us,

Jay Armbrister: 39:00

top notch. Yeah, they're top notch. They're not just good at what they do. They're very good at teaching people how to do it again. Anecdotal, Ted Williams was probably one of the greatest, if not the greatest baseball hitter of all time, but when he left the game and tried to come back as a coach, he struggled deeply, because he didn't have the ability. He couldn't. He couldn't say, Just do it like this. That's, you know, just do it like this. This is how I do it. Just do it like this. He didn't have the ability to teach. And that is a unique gift. I am not a good teacher. My wife gets so frustrated with me when we go and play golf, and she's like, well, what am I doing wrong? I'm like, Well, you know, you just, I don't know, you're just not doing it right. She's like, he's like, I don't want to play golf with you anymore, so, but you know that is not my strong suit. But that is also what is so amazing about this agency, is that we have those people, and we've been able to move them into these positions, Deputy Maldonado master. Deputy Maldonado. I just last night, he came walking in. With his uniform and this these big totes. I'm like, What's up, man? He's like, Oh, I just got back from the Kelly DC training academy where I was teaching a class on, I think it was like, vest

Rich Qualls: 40:10

people tactics, yeah, defensive tactics too, yeah. We'll grab it on to the counter carrier.

Jay Armbrister: 40:14

The external vests are now have now become something that people will utilize to against police, because they can grab and hold on to and move you. And also, I mean, for those that don't know, inside our carriers is this big loop that comes out, and that is because if we have an officer down, we need to have a way to drag them. But that loop is now a liability, because if it comes out, or they know it's there, they now have a hold of you, or they can even get it around you so, so he is out teaching other agencies how to be prepared and how to not get hurt and to

Kyle Appleby: 40:47

build upon that. That same class that was a class that was asked by kltc to for us to create. So this was not that no one offers that kind of

Rich Qualls: 40:57

crap. They identified a need and said, Hey, can you guys do this,

Jay Armbrister: 41:01

he'll come to us. Yeah, absolutely. So, again, we're just bragging. That's all right, the view from the 100 about bragging on the sheriff's office. Do you ever come up with anything? Yeah, have a

Rich Qualls: 41:15

the one thing you know that's, that's tough, yeah, sure, come down here, but you're gonna think

Jay Armbrister: 41:19

of it at midnight tonight.

Rich Qualls: 41:21

You know, I, I've, I've been very fortunate in my career, and I've had a wide breadth of experience, you know, I've got to work with a lot of agencies, for three different agencies, been involved in a lot of critical incidents, you know, with even agencies I didn't work for, you know, yeah, I've done IA investigations, and I've now, I've done a lot of hiring, and I think what I would want people to know about cops, and again, this is my experience, maybe it's region specific, is that nobody gets into this profession selfishly or for bad reasons. They when they come in, they genuinely want to help and make a difference. When it goes wrong, it's because of the bad things they've seen and that we have failed to train them how to deal with that properly, or the proper way to solve these problems that they come across. So training is the answer. People are right on that, right, but it's honestly the initial training. We can always improve that, right? We can get that, but we're getting good people that actually want to help their communities and are willing to make these sacrifices. So now we just have to equip them when it comes time to make these sacrifices. Here's how you're going to have to deal with it. Sure.

Jay Armbrister: 42:52

Well, I think, I think there's two things, 2.1 on one. I'll push back a little bit in that I agree with you that an overwhelming majority get into this for the right reasons. That's fair and that's fair, but, but again, that's on us, the good cops, to sort out the bad cops, root them out and run them out, but also make them unable to get a job somewhere else. And that's a whole, whole other but I think, I think it's such a everybody says we need to be training. We need to be training. We need to be training. I can. I could train every deputy for 100 hours a month on firefight tactics and defensive tactics. We could, we could exclusively, and we could have the the baddest group of warrior minded individuals that you've ever seen, but is that the kind of training that our community wants us to have? They need us to have a little bit of that, but they would rather us have those tactics, as well as de escalation, bias based policing, mental health for for the folks who we come in contact with, but also for ourselves. I would rather do 100 hours of all of it as opposed to just being like, Nope, we're just gonna learn how to win a firefight. We're gonna learn how to survive and

Rich Qualls: 44:09

not to interrupt, yeah, but I do wanna jump in. That's one of the things that we train a lot in, is how to identify when to switch back and forth. Sure. Oh, because it can happen instantaneously, and you have to switch it off. You have to switch it off and switch it on. Yeah, right. And so which hat are you wearing? Because you are gonna play every role you can think of in a matter

Jay Armbrister: 44:34

of seconds. In a matter of seconds. I've said it for years, other than perhaps our military, I don't know of an of a job outside of law enforcement, where you have to be prepared in a split second to take a life or give somebody a hug you and, and it may even be the same person you just don't even know. And, and I think that that that gets lost a lot in the national narrative, but also. So you know, even like when it comes to let's say there's a deadly force incident where a person is shot and killed, those officers who took that life, as soon as that threat is rendered no longer they have to take that warrior hat off and put the human hat back on and be like now, let's get you the help you need, if we can and do all we can to try to help you through this. And that is a very difficult I mean, for folks, I've never been involved in shooting, and I hope I never am, but that would be a very difficult thing to go through, is to be in a position that you need to stop a threat that may take a life and then immediately switch into trying to save that life. And so I think that's a great point. Is that that that that nationally and locally, I wish people would would take that into account and understand that it's not as simple as just saying, Why aren't you helping him? Because I just because this just happened, my body is trying, is screaming at me to do something totally different, and so, but then and then and then, in a kind of the same but separate is, again, people are so tired of hearing me talk about mental health for first responders. But again, it's like if we are not taking care of people, we why are we sending them into the most stressful and dangerous situations our community can provide to us and expecting them to handle them perfectly? And so I was on a podcast years ago with this guy who's mental health professional somewhere up in the in the New England states, and he made such an amazing point, and he we were talking about first responder mental illness wellness, and he said, He's like, he's like, he's like, tell me this, Jay, if you were sitting at your shift table waiting for your shift to start and your partner walks in and he's limping, and you say, Hey, why are you limping? What's going on? He's like, Oh, I'm fine. You'd be like, Okay, well, I hope you're okay. But then if he walks in and he's got a bone sticking out of his leg, and you're like, what's wrong with your leg? He says, Nothing. I'm fine. You don't accept that answer, like, this is not happening. You are not going out. We're not doing this. Why do we let somebody with a mental situation where they are not well, go out into these situations, and it's the same thing so as and again, this is a culture issue where, for even I'm not saying this is not to say that the sheriff's office that I grew up in didn't care. It was just that we had a work we had a job that we had to do, and we had a group of people who did it, and if you showed an ounce of weakness, you were not going to be in that group anymore. And so we were, we were the get back in the saddle. You got a job to do, eat it in here, chew it outside, kind of, kind of mentality, and we have learned that just wasn't quite right. And so now we teach a lot of mental health stuff in our academy, in our continuing education. But also we've, we've created initiatives within the agency to just let people know is like, hey, what you just saw that was not okay, and, and, and selfishly, I'm glad you're hurt a little bit, because that means you're human, like, it means you care. Like, if that bothers you, because it should. That's the right response. Now, how do we get you to where you're feeling okay about it and you're ready to go to work and do that kind of stuff? And I think that that culture has shifted nationally as well, but in our agency, it's it's been amazing just to see the amount of people who are willing. And again, we go back to these millennial folks. They are way more prepared to handle their mental health than any of us, like they come into us ready to be better and be okay, and talk about things that we were never prepared to so so of we can talk all the bad things about that generation. They are. They are on top of their mental health. That

Kyle Appleby: 48:51

is so true for sure. Yeah, yeah. And that's something we offer. You know, when we are bringing them in for their interviews, I mean, we hit that pretty hard. We're going to be here for you if you can sign on. Sure. You know we're a good fit, we're going

Jay Armbrister: 49:03

to take care of you. Yeah, and, and that is not something we can fail at, no, and there is no room for error in that. So I feel pretty good about where we've gone and the programs we got in place. So I do want to talk briefly Kyle more specifically towards you. Yeah, no, I want you to talk about, you have a title, and I'm going to get it wrong, but it's the LGBTQ. I A rep something. What it before? I totally screwed.

Kyle Appleby: 49:31

Now you're going to the LGBTQ plus liaison courtly. Or courtly is on Jesus, the liaison for the for the LGBT community,

Jay Armbrister: 49:40

okay? And it's specifically for the Sheriff's Office, but also you do a lot of work locally and regionally, yeah,

Kyle Appleby: 49:47

so we do have a, it's a call it the Kansas City Metro Law Enforcement Network, all the LGBTQ liaisons for the entire area. So we hit different different events. It's sure, just being present, yeah, we're first and foremost. Everyone kind of comes to us saying, Hey, what are you guys doing? Are you gonna get this event? Can we share your table? Or, you know, it is a fantastic experience that I got to deal with this Sure, I you know, as a gay male, surprise anymore.

Unknown: 50:24

Nobody in this room is

Kyle Appleby: 50:27

surprised, not surprised. Coming into this field, you know, in law enforcement, as a gay male, yeah, that wasn't easy. Sure. I had my own, my own experiences, not sure, not very positive, especially kind of where I came from, sure, smaller town, Bible belt, you know. And I understand that there the the conflict that you might have with law enforcement being in a in the LGBT community, there's, we work for the government, right? So every decision that the government makes, right? It affects them. Yeah. Affects people in our community, whether it be executive orders, whether it be new laws, whether that be whatever that may be, yeah, we're seen as the government right, and we're the ones that have to enforce those lines sometimes, yeah? So we made we just look like the bad guys sometimes. And we gotta, that's the hand we're dealt with, sure. So we have to work through that. So we have to show yeah, that we're out there. Oh, man, yeah. We have a such a diverse agency with full spectrums of everyone from our community, in that community, in that community, 100% and that's why, that's why it works out so well, yeah, we have a lot of support in the community. We do because we are reflection, yeah,

Jay Armbrister: 51:50

that, and that's what that is, one of the one of the kind of the feathers in our caps is that we are somewhat representative of our community. Now, do I wish we had more folks from other diverse cultures. Of course, I do. I wish we but again, sometimes it's hard to earn that trust. You know, I talk constantly about the beautiful and strong Native American population in this in this college and this university that we have in our town, I that has been an underutilized relationship that I have not done my part to to to engender into to to gain, make track, you know, make it work. But when it comes to the LGBTQ community, I feel like Lawrence, first off, is a leader

Kyle Appleby: 52:40

in I call it the San Fran of cancer. We

Jay Armbrister: 52:44

absolute, we we very, we are, we are we are Berkeley, we are Austin, we are, you know, and I, but I, I'm with you in that, you know, I know, I know my heart, and I know where, where I am on these, on these issues, but when I put that uniform on, I can't help the way that they see or perceive me and that uniform and you know, even through the Pride Parade, we would get calls from people screaming, protect us, you know, and and that that is not offensive at All, and it's not a threat, it's not an anger that is their truth, and it's being shouted at me, and I want to shout back, I will, or I want to, but there again, there are times that the government does things that we simply can't, you know, you know, do anything with or or change but, but the thing that we're trying to show the community is that We are here and we want to make sure everybody is safe, everybody feels safe, and everybody feels heard. But if there is something bad that happens, we're here to work with you to get you through it. You may not like the outcome. You know, it may involve an arrest, but just like with our trans community, if they if one of those folks are arrested, we work very, very hard with that person to make sure that they are housed in a way that is a legal because the state has mandated how we house folks when it comes to male or female biologically, but they cannot legislate how we work with them through that process. And so that is, again, one of those things that I feel like we are. We're very ahead of the curve on we've had, we've had folks who identify say, female housed, female treated female in our jail, because that's that's how it should be. But as soon as they leave our jail and go to the Kansas Department of Correction or prison, they are thrown straight into a male housing unit because they biologically fit that criteria. To me, that's heartbreaking, absolutely heartbreaking, but it's also something I have no control over. But what I what we do have control over, is how you're treated while you're in with us and so and

Kyle Appleby: 54:54

you know every every member, when you get hired on goes, I do put on a classroom for them. I. Contacts with LGBT community, you know, especially for our trans folks, yeah, they're going through a lot right now, they're going through a lot, so we have to be very transparent. Yeah, you know, when we talk about police reports, it may have a name that they don't go by any right? So we have to be conscious to say this is why this name isn't here, but we have to go by illegally. What this is, this is what the process is going to look like when, you know, in the jail. Yep, we may have to ask certain personal questions, sure, but we need to explain why we're asking questions. Just be transparent, absolutely and we're going to mess up.

Jay Armbrister: 55:42

Absolutely I'm going

Kyle Appleby: 55:43

to misgender somebody, I'll be the first to admit it, and you apologize and you move on. Yeah,

Jay Armbrister: 55:50

yeah. Pronouns are difficult for me, just because, simply, they don't work grammatically. Sometimes, sure they is a very difficult thing to utilize, especially what I've noticed is if it's somebody I've had a previous relationship and have known them in another since. It was hard for me, but, but I just think again like that, like my child. My children are 20 and 22 their generation is just not a big it's not a thing to nothing. They somebody says that, hey, you know my pronouns are this. They're just like, bam, got it. But you get the old, crusty white dude like me, and I'm just like, I'm trying my best. I really am. But, but, you know, and that's, that's a best case scenario. On the flip side, some people are just treated with contempt and hatred, and so, so, yeah, I just, I wanted to, I wanted to touch on that, and just to kind of talk through is like, again, we're fortunate enough to have a community that supports this initiative. But it's also is that we just see this as we treat humans like, humans like and how they deserve to be, no matter how they choose to live their life, inside or outside of our jail. But it's, I just think, it's I think it's something that that the world is beginning to turn a little bit more towards. But we're there's a lot of work to be done. And again, those communities that feel unsafe, you know, I get it. I've never lived that life, and I'm not going to sit here and tell you, No, you are safe, because you might not be, but what I am telling you is that if you come in contact with one of us, we are going to do our very best to treat you in a human first approach, and especially because most of the times, by the time that we're involved in anything, it's a bad situation, it could very well be the worst situation they've ever been in. So we take that very seriously. So thank you so much for for the work you do on that. But also just kind of explaining it to folks. Let's see any other, any other things that you think that we need to tell the people about, you know, because we're gonna have like nine people listen to this thing.

Unknown: 57:42

So, so it's a big impact. Yeah, huge, huge. Something's jumping out at me.

Jay Armbrister: 57:49

Okay, well, I always, I always ask the same dumb question, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you both, as part of learning whom you are, I always like to know what was your first concert? What was your most recent concert, and what was your favorite concert? Those could be those all three could be the same thing, but they may be vastly different, and you may not. And that's the things I've learned through this too, is like some people just aren't music people, they're like, I've never been to a concert, which makes me judge you harshly.

Rich Qualls: 58:21

Well, I've seen you do this before, so I knew already got it down. So yeah, I was well, and my first concert was in Lawrence. I had a one of my childhood friends, his older brother had a metal band, and they got a gig. And so me and my friend, we weren't old enough to drive, so his mom had to drive us up here. And I, I remember it being at the bottleneck. I mean, that's the name I remember. But now that I've been, you know, in the bars downtown, I think it was the replay, like that makes more sense, like with the memories, sure, you know, but yeah, heavy metal. I can't even remember the name, right? Absolutely. Yeah, older brother, so he's got to be the coolest

Jay Armbrister: 59:06

guy. Yeah, a metal scene in Lawrence for a small show would be, that'd be pretty intense. That's a

Unknown: 59:14

good time, right? Yeah, it was, especially at 14

Jay Armbrister: 59:18

educational,

Rich Qualls: 59:21

yeah, my most recent and my favorite was Luke combs at arrowhead. Oh yeah, a couple two years ago, maybe, sure, yeah, my wife's niece wanted to go, and so we got floor tickets. I mean, you know, right, it was, it was a good show. I

Jay Armbrister: 59:40

admittedly am not a country newer country fan, which he tends to fall in that category. But I've he's been guests on some hunting shows that I really enjoy, the meat eater podcast and that kind of stuff. I'm pretty sure I can hang out with that dude that he's just a good, good guy, seems like. So yeah, I'm with you. That'd be, that'd be a good show. I bet he puts on a good. It was pretty good time.

Kyle Appleby: 1:00:02

Well, my first concert was called Fleming and John and some

Jay Armbrister: 1:00:09

No, no, I got nothing. Were they Yeah? Were they like a one hit wonder or

Kyle Appleby: 1:00:13

Yeah? They were in the late 90s, early 2000s kind of Fleming and John, Fleming and John and they were the Ozark Empire fair. Where was that? At Springfield? Springfield, okay, yeah, so that was good. That was my first. My last one was pink. And I think my favorite, oh, I had parents above Lady Gaga was my, oh, man,

Jay Armbrister: 1:00:36

that was my. Where was that AT T Mobile? How long ago? A couple years or, yeah, gosh, four years ago. I bet that would be quite a spectacle.

Kyle Appleby: 1:00:44

It was good, yeah, so if you didn't know I was gay before, well, it's,

Unknown: 1:00:48

yeah, I resisted saying anything.

Jay Armbrister: 1:00:51

No, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do you one better. Years and years ago, through the grapevine, I was on patrol, and you were a new corrections officer, and somebody was like, hey, Appleby, he won tickets to see Britney Spears, and he's getting a go. He's, he's super excited, so he rented a limo. And I'm like, Really, yep, dead. I should have known that's a clue. Yeah, absolutely. So, okay, well, I think we've, we've, we've broached all the subjects that we had hoped to get through. Obviously, I say this every time people are tired to hear me, I just I really appreciate the work that you guys do. I appreciate the two of you just so deeply because of the not just the impact you have on the folks that we have, but the future. Because the people you train today are going to be the trainers in five years, and they're going to be the administrators in 10 years and 15 years, and so it is. It's such a butterfly effect that if you treat them right now, they're going to turn into better employees and better leaders in the future. So I think people lose sight of how much that impact is. But also, you know it, this is an agency that I love deeply, and I want to be successful for centuries to come, but knowing that how we what we're doing now, is going to affect the agency that I'm not going to work for, but it's going to be the one that's going to be protecting me and my family, because I'm never leaving here. And so thank you so much for that, for that. But other than that, I think, I think that pretty well does it for us today, we got one

Rich Qualls: 1:02:26

more thing. Oh, what was that to the eight people? If you want to come work for us, we're almost full, we're almost full staff, but go to the website, DGS, oh.org, yep. And I think there's a employment tab. Click on that, and then it'll give you into the pre screening.

Jay Armbrister: 1:02:45

And I have to, I have to shout out our our county commission, because a year and a half ago, they passed through a pay package being nestled right next to Johnson County that has a tax base that is roughly the size of the East Coast. I think, right, we can't compete with them. You know, not just Johnson County Sheriff's Office, but the next says overland parks and the Olathe. We can't compete with them. And we were losing people simply for money. We were We had employees that actually left us and say, I would, I would stay and work here if I can make that money. And and so they, they saw that, they helped us out, and we got a pay package pushed through. And the results of that have been magical, I would say. But I think, if I'm not mistaken, the starting pay for a corrections officer today is a hair under $28

Unknown: 1:03:35

I think 2799 an hour.

Jay Armbrister: 1:03:38

So a hair one secretary one, yeah, roughly, roughly. And so that has really offered us the opportunity to not just get more applications, but be a little bit more selective and make sure that we're getting the right fits. And so again, the Commission went out on a limb and helped us out by doing that you know, huge way. And so we're very fortunate. But yeah, if you want to come and work for the Sheriff's Office, we welcome it. The other thing is, like, We hire a lot of civilians as well. You know, we have a lot of civilian positions, and we're learning now, we're seeing now that those don't turn over as much. Maybe people are happy here, but it's also the county has very good benefits. It's so funny, because when I hired in, they were like, Oh my gosh, the retirement is amazing, the insurance is amazing. And here I am, this 22 year old kids, like, I don't care. Can I have the keys to the car or not? You know? And but now that I'm I'm kind of snuggling up to retirement. I'm like, man, we have really great retirement. We have really great insurance and all that stuff. So yeah, it's been a fantastic place to work. So thank you so much for being on thank you for coming and joining me. I doubt that they're going to the people listening are going to get out of this conversation what I did, because I just love listening and hearing about it. But thank you so much for doing it, and we appreciate everything you do. You. And we'll see you. I don't know what some catch phrase now we'll see you on the flip side, or something. I don't know. Thank you so much. Have a good rest your week. Thank you.